crab licencing?

[mark]

just found this:

http://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news?articleid=2930821

that one certainly sneaked in!

[codseeker]

at the end it says "The new shellfish by-laws change make it illegal for anyone to fish for lobsters, edible crabs, velvet crabs or whelk without a permit." well i certainly dont eat peeler crab lol

[red rock]

well thats put the cat among the pigeons guess i am not going to be the only one breaking the law soon .true or not it stinks and this world is going mad,next you will be only allowed to catch one fish and have to pay to go on the beach

[pottsy]

well thats put the cat among the pigeons guess i am not going to be the only one breaking the law soon .true or not it stinks and this world is going mad,next you will be only allowed to catch one fish and have to pay to go on the beach

The boundary is -

The Committee’s District stretches from the South Pier at the River Tyne to a point to a point on the Lincolnshire Coast known as ‘Donna Nook’ and includes part of the River Humber Estuary, a total distance of just over 200 shore miles. The seaward limit of this District currently extends out to six nautical miles as measured from the U.K baseline co-ordinates.

and it says -

From 1 June 2007 no person shall fish for or take any shellfish in the form of Lobster, Edible Crab, velvet Crab and Whelk (not common shore crab) from North Eastern Sea Fisheries` district, without a relevant shellfish permit.

The Limited Shellfish Permit is for any individual, whether a vessel owner or not, who do not qualify for the criteria of a Shellfish Entitlement Holder Permit. This will apply to the following:-

Unlicenced hobby fishermen
Bait collection
Shore gathering
Recreational fishermen

Looks like if you are north of the Tyne you will be legal anyway

[micky-quayle]

it contradicts the magna carta so in theory you could be prosecuted in the magistrates court for breaking the new by-law but could go to the crown court and have the prosecution overturned quoting the magna carta (however this would be hard to do due to being VERY expensive)
i can't remember the exact wording but the magna carta has a passage that says something along these lines. anything that is ancillary to fishing may be taken from beyond the mean low water mark. what can be more ancillary to fishing than bait !
hopefully someone who has more idea about laws etc could confirm if this is right or not.

[Topfly]

I thought when king John signed the magna carta,the serfs were told they could make a living below the said waterline, which i would like to think was a spring high tide

[pottsy]

it contradicts the magna carta so in theory you could be prosecuted in the magistrates court for breaking the new by-law but could go to the crown court and have the prosecution overturned quoting the magna carta (however this would be hard to do due to being VERY expensive)
i can't remember the exact wording but the magna carta has a passage that says something along these lines. anything that is ancillary to fishing may be taken from beyond the mean low water mark. what can be more ancillary to fishing than bait !
hopefully someone who has more idea about laws etc could confirm if this is right or not.

It was dealt with in this case - (this has been cut and paste from another forum)

In Anderson v Alnwick DC [1993] 3 All ER 613 the Court of Appeal had to consider whether there was a public right to dig for and take lugworms from the foreshore, a topic to which it will be necessary to return later. The Court of Appeal did not have to decide whether there was a right to take shell-fish from the foreshore but in giving judgment Evans LJ appears to have accepted that there was such a public right. He cited without apparent disapproval Hall's "Essay on the Rights of the Crown and the Privileges of the Subject in the Seashores of the Realm" (2nd Edition) (1875). The learned author stated --

"As the public right of fishery cannot be enjoyed without making use of the seashore for egress and regress or for other essential conveniences which the fishery requires in order to be carried on with effect, the use of the seashore, for all purposes essential to the enjoyment of the right of fishery necessarily accompanies such right."

Later the writer stated --

"The catching of shell-fish on the seashore . . . would seem to constitute an integral part of the public right . . . The fishery for lobster, crabs, prawns, shrimps, oysters and various other shell-fish . . . is carried on in every fishing village on the coast and is one very useful and valuable branch of the fishing trade. The catch of these fish is, therefore, part of the public (right)."



Basically this means that you can take shellfish to use as bait for the purpose of fishing but not for selling


Ali

[LeonRoskilly]

The Magna Carta (translated from Latin to English) can be read at:

http://www.bl.uk/treasures/magnacarta/translation.html

[mark]

the magna carta is a great read, but there's 800years of additional laws since which turn loads of it on its head some of it is fundemental stuff:

(38) In future no official shall place a man on trial upon his own unsupported statement, without producing credible witnesses to the truth of it.

did nowt for the guildford 4 and birmingham 6

(40) To no one will we sell, to no one deny or delay right or justice.

but we will ship em off to Guantanamo bay

(6680) Any serf that dumpeth yee migning tyre in order to maketh a few snidey groats from yee crabs is granted the privelege to declare 'how yee them doth be mine crustaceans' whereupon such utterance the said fellow may maketh great violence up such interloper


the last one got left out as they ran out of paper, but appeared the week after in "Yee Olde Sea Angler" along side an interesting article on how to tie shock leaders, and a world exclusive on pendulum casting

[The Great Wallsendo]

Never laughed so hard in my life....It doth heartens my aching serf soul to read of such learned Sea Anglers/Amateur Historians out there...

As I'm North of the Tyne this doesn't appear to affect me (yet) but if you want me to sign anywhere I will....

"I've got battles to fight and Rights to right" - Citizen Smith (not quite the Magna Carter)

[Topfly]

Nice one Pottsy,keep those embers glowing. these are our rights, and our childrens / grandchildrens, and future generations rights. Yes you might have to buy a licence to fish in other countries, but their fisheries have been nurtured. not raped and pillaged by all and sundry.

[red rock]

the magna carta is a great read, but there's 800years of additional laws since which turn loads of it on its head some of it is fundemental stuff:

(38) In future no official shall place a man on trial upon his own unsupported statement, without producing credible witnesses to the truth of it.

did nowt for the guildford 4 and birmingham 6

(40) To no one will we sell, to no one deny or delay right or justice.

but we will ship em off to Guantanamo bay

(6680) Any serf that dumpeth yee migning tyre in order to maketh a few snidey groats from yee crabs is granted the privelege to declare 'how yee them doth be mine crustaceans' whereupon such utterance the said fellow may maketh great violence up such interloper


the last one got left out as they ran out of paper, but appeared the week after in "Yee Olde Sea Angler" along side an interesting article on how to tie shock leaders, and a world exclusive on pendulum casting

mark does 6680 apply to one person or everybody in olde england with they minging tyres

do you know anybody or everybody??? or even knoweth were their minging tyres are???

[davem2005]

The boundary is -

The Committee’s District stretches from the South Pier at the River Tyne to a point to a point on the Lincolnshire Coast known as ‘Donna Nook’ and includes part of the River Humber Estuary, a total distance of just over 200 shore miles. The seaward limit of this District currently extends out to six nautical miles as measured from the U.K baseline co-ordinates.

and it says -

From 1 June 2007 no person shall fish for or take any shellfish in the form of Lobster, Edible Crab, velvet Crab and Whelk (not common shore crab) from North Eastern Sea Fisheries` district, without a relevant shellfish permit.

The Limited Shellfish Permit is for any individual, whether a vessel owner or not, who do not qualify for the criteria of a Shellfish Entitlement Holder Permit. This will apply to the following:-

Unlicenced hobby fishermen
Bait collection
Shore gathering
Recreational fishermen

Looks like if you are north of the Tyne you will be legal anyway

Does anyone know the exact definition of "the UK Baseline co-ordinates".

As I understood it the sfc's jurisdiction is from the mean low water mark out to 6 miles asmentioned in the marine whitepaper where it suggests increasing their area to include up to the high water mark and in some cases up to 1km inland.

If this were the case they have no jurisdiction to introduce bylaws for bait digging.

In fact to answer my own question an excert from the NSFC website

The district thus extends to 6 nautical miles seaward from the baselines from which the United Kingdom Territorial Waters area measured and save as mentioned above includes the water on the landward side of those baselines. The baselines in question were those established by the Territorial Waters Order in Council 1964 as amended by the Territorial Waters (Amendment) Order in Council 1979. Save in the case of bays, the distance of 6 nautical miles is measured from low water mark along the whole extent of the coast within the district as well as of independent islands and banks.

Local councils and the land owners (which in most cases is the crown estate)have jurisdiction not the SFC.

Any lawyers in the house?

Cheers
Dave

[davem2005]

Here is the definining document of the area that the scf's have control over.

http://www.un.org/Depts/los/LEGISLATIONANDTREATIES/PDFFILES/GBR_1964_TerritorialWatersOrder.pdf

Seems odd they can introduce a ban on digging on the beach!!!

Cheers
Dave

[codseeker]

too tired al read it next week