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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2009, 11:12 AM
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I've read it a few times now and every time it takes on a more political answer, in the sense that it rules little in and nothing out, for either the shore or boat fishermen. Do I think this is an accident? Of course not. It ranks alongside any political parties manifesto which says "we'll do this unless something else happens and we have to change our minds and policies" What isn't clear (to me anyway) is who is pulling the strings hardest.
Thanks for the time and trouble Alan. It's enough to make you pull your hair out. Luckily you've got plenty of hair to pull lol
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2009, 12:10 PM
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MCZ's have been discussed for years and all major economies in the EU and around the world have agreed to implement them over the coming years. So we all sit back dig our heels in and say NO, whilst all the other interested groups say 'right we want this, this and this'. Whilst all these other groups make and accept compromise to come to a common conclusion, by putting forward relevant information to give their argument support. We as anglers say, we will not move as it is our right as it was written down over 1000 years ago to do as we please....it all sounds like the argument of the commercials, who have no intention of listening to scientific advice.
So some areas may be out of bounds.....Why do we think that may be.....If you look at a scientific experiment, you need differing examples to prove that something works.....I.e. an area where there is a complete ban (will show that the ecosystem recovers), an area where there may be only RSA (the ecosystem will show a near full recovery) and an area where it's the normal 'free for all' (where the ecosystem continues to decline).

So how do the scientists get the data from anglers to show as we keep saying that there is a major decline.....Thru a questionaire.....Or alternatively as has been suggested use catch reports from magazines or websites....Well we all know about the cod boom we are experiencing as reported in a 'not to be mentioned' magazine...So there's not a problem in shore angling as far as the science understands from these reports....Or websites....Look back only a few years back on NESA and we have catch reports from the boats on the Tyne of 200-300 cod.....so again the data the scientists would have paint a rosy picture.

Or they listen to the commercials who say the sea is ful of fish!

The trouble is MCZ's are coming wether you are for or against them, unless you put your point forward and give your views on what you are or are not catching, then they will be implemented anyway, as they will believe that everything is tickety boo in sea angling.
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Old 12-02-2009, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Davyred View Post
Good post Alan.

I agree with Northeast1, its coming and the points you made in your emails to Audrey Jones highlight just what may happen.

From reading what she said, she knows that if they decide that an area is made out of bounds to anglers, there is very little we can do about it.

Its annoying to say the least that people like this could, in reality, affect the livelihoods of many people involved in the sea angling business. What would make it even more hard to take is if an area is deemed out of bounds through some kind of flora or fauna. If they ban sea angling sea angling for that reason, would they ban walkers/ramblers as well? I very much doubt it.
as far as I can gather it is not very far along, but apprently about 250 anglers filled in the questionaire, quite a few of those thought it meany that commercial fishing was going to be banned within the MCZ's and never thought of anything else, as i pointed out and they agreed very little info had been given to anglers. No bird watchers and walkers would not be stopped, in discussions with NE on other matters they have been deemed not to be descructive flora and fauna, otherwords thye are part of the anti angling lot
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  #14 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2009, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Stores View Post
I've read it a few times now and every time it takes on a more political answer, in the sense that it rules little in and nothing out, for either the shore or boat fishermen. Do I think this is an accident? Of course not. It ranks alongside any political parties manifesto which says "we'll do this unless something else happens and we have to change our minds and policies" What isn't clear (to me anyway) is who is pulling the strings hardest.
Thanks for the time and trouble Alan. It's enough to make you pull your hair out. Luckily you've got plenty of hair to pull lol
not after this David, have a mail box full of page long e mails, my brain is hurting
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Old 12-02-2009, 01:19 PM
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I recieved this thread in the form of an email from Alan and wrote a reply accordingly. The easist thing for me to do is to paste that reply here. One thing I forgot to mention in the reply is that the collection of data on RSA's is an EU requirement with or without the possible threat of article 47, the marine bill or any other changes to the way our sea are run.

Dear Alan,

Many thanks for sending me a copy of this and I am pleased to see that someone else is finally taking an interest in matters that could have far reaching implications in the future.

The topic of MCZ and NTZ has been on the agenda at every meeting I have attended down south from the first one to the last one in Decenber.

Every angling organization has been asking the same questions right from the first announcement in the Marine Bill White paper…What are they? And where will they be ? As far as I am aware there has been no definitive answer.

The closest to getting an answer was at a presentation given by the Finding Sanctuary team at the NFSA Conservation group meeting in December down in Devon. They are employing people to collect data on activities in all regions and this includes RSA activities. This data will be broken down into 1km areas so the data can be analyzed to assess the activities taking place in each region.

It was made very clear that they are not interested in “mark X” as a hotspot for bait digging, only that bait digging takes place within the 1km area that includes mark X.

The implications of this are that if, for example, the RSPB were to identify a rare or endangered species of bird nesting close to mark X it would apply for the area to become a MCZ and the data collected would be used to do an impact assessment on the creation of a MCZ. If they don’t know about mark X they will not be able to do an impact assessment with regard to the socio economics’ of bait digging and therefore bait digging will not be considered when the decision is made as to whether to make a particular area a MCZ.

A similar scenario could be applied as to areas where bass are being caught. Most people who catch them are very vague about where and yet there is potential for the creation of bass nursery areas, but without the information from anglers how are the authorities going to decide where these locations should be.

I have always been very vague about the locations of some of my catches, however it is my personal opinion that the information being asked for by CEFAS is not to create a website where someone can click to find out the best bait digging spots, its designed to create a database that can be used to help improve and protect our sport. A couple of examples, would be to prove how many anglers fish within the Northumberland EMS and use that information to get trawling banned within that region, or to prove how many anglers fish a particular beach in the winter and get a netting ban at certain times of year.

Finally you may like to take into considerations the implications of the Northumberland EMS which stretches from Fast Castle head down to Alnmouth. It is my understanding that EMS’s will automatically become MCZ’s and if this is the case anglers do need to be included as stakeholders in the decision making process. The current management Group do not have any angling organization within their members. ( I have however been asked if I would attend the next management group meeting)

It is proposed that the Northumberland EMS and Northumberland AONB join together and create a new management group and as such RSA’s need to be represented on that group and have accurate information available to enable us to ensure we get the best deal possible for anglers and the only way we are going to do that is by being able to prove the economic benefits of RSA with minimal environmental impact.

Have a look at Berwickshire & North Northumberland Coast European Marine Site and Northumberland Coast AONB - Home for further details.

I have an invite to attend a forum to discuss the management of these areas and have asked if any other people can be included in that invite. I will be attending as the SACN rep however if possible it would be nice if other organization such as Northern fed and AT could be included.

Sorry for the long reply but you have raised many questions in your enquiries with NE and many that have been raised before on a national basis “down south”.

Please feel to forward this email to those you have circulated the original email to if you feel it is relevant. Like you I am skeptical about providing too much information to Defra etc however it is very obvious that it will prove almost impossible to get things improved for RSA’s without data to back up the claims we are making regarding the worth of RSA to the country with minimal environmental impact.

As Leon keeps reminding me over and over again “ If we are not sat at the table , we will not have any say in the final outcome”

Regards
Dave
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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2009, 01:20 PM
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I will have to read it a few times to take it all in Alan.Having too many "senior moments" these days !!!!!!

I have copied and pasted it to other forums though.
cheers mate
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Old 12-02-2009, 02:00 PM
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If you guys that attended the meeting at Newbiggin last year over the Marine Bill and the post on here about the Licence remember, I made a point at the meeting that the Marine Bill was about a lot more than the Licence and I talked about MCZ, that will include No Take Zones and much more and this is why it was so important to become a stakeholder and complete the consultation document that included questions on MCZ.(If you do don't DEFRA assume the answer to questionnaires, often in there favor) To my Knowledge there was only one Angling club in Northumberland to complete a consultation document and very few others from the North East. I attended a meeting in London with DEFRA and Natural England shortly after the Newbiggin meeting with Dave Morton about MCZ, RSA were well represented with SACN NFSA and others such as CEFAS that is when we were told unofficially about the Licence fee being dropped, this information was posted on here by Dave along with information about MCZ. In the meantime much more has happened with the common fisheries policy Article 47, The Northumberland Area of Outstanding Beauty along with European Marine site (Alnmouth to Scotland) seemed to have joined forces and will be having joint meetings soon and also wish to consult with RSA put all this together and add the last part of Marine Bill and that is Access, you can understand why the RSPB, National trust, Ramblers Association have jumped on board. The whole Idea of Angling Trust was to unite the voice of anglers and to be able to have the finance to lobby parliament and represent anglers on such matters. I have just joined AT as a personal member and believe that the more of us should do so, we then lobby our organization to represent us in the North East as they now have full time paid staff and a legal department they offer more than just insurance if you read the blub. Oh and I forgot to mention that the Northumberland Sea Fisheries Committee is also being consulted on, soon to be The Northumberland Inshore Fisheries and Conservation Authority, the guys that will police much of the Marine Bill. A lot to be taken in and to quote Leon Rosskilly if we are not sat at the table we will not have a say in the final outcome”. So it is our choice we have the Angling Trust Marine Group backed by the AT with one voice so I believe we should give them a try, pay the £20 quid and let them know about us in the North East.
London is losing The Marine Management Organization HQ and it is coming to, you wont believe it, Tyne side.
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Old 12-02-2009, 03:02 PM
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Originally Posted by loopy View Post
London is losing The Marine Management Organization HQ and it is coming to, you wont believe it, Tyne side.
Quite a turn up for the books that one.

As I understand it the MMO is to take over the running of inshore fisheries from Defra and it that is the case it should make attending meetings far more affordable for us here in the NE.

With regard to anglers being represented by a particular body to have their say it is an area I am still very unsure about with regard to how this will work for the NE. There is no question that we have not had good representation at government level in the recent past and with the change from NFSA to Angling Trust it is still very unclear in mind what if anything will change.

The NE NFSA have not been very politically orientated in the past and I assume this organisation has become NE Angling Trust ( I may be totally wrong about that) There certainly seems to be a contradiction of opinions between the NE Angling Trust and Angling Trust marine policy if what I have read here is anything to go by.

Perhaps if fisheries management gets moved to Tyneside this will all change and many more local anglers will start to get involved.

Cheers
Dave
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Old 12-02-2009, 04:18 PM
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Here's a little something that might help us make up our minds-

SACN, BASS, NFSA, ANGLING TRUST - YOU KILLED SEA ANGLING - Fishing News

Gary

Oops - iust realized this was posted on the other thread already - sorry! Stiii worth a watch though

Last edited by g-force; 12-02-2009 at 05:32 PM.
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Old 12-02-2009, 05:42 PM
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One of very many






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LinkBack to this Thread: https://www.nesa.co.uk/forums/shore-fishing/26140-marine-conservation-zones-ins-outs.html
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