LING_BASHER
Well-known member
I Dave you Norman, Mark and Bob kept to many undersized fish...you should have stuck them 10lbers back lol.This thread will go on forever and split alot of memebrs like other threads in the past did.
E
Ell
Guest
It won\'t split members Rich, We are all agreed that taking undersized fish is basically wrong. Wether we always do right is the thing that is being discussed.
T
TC
Guest
I\'m a bit confused about your comments, Richy.....
In your 1st, you say \"Well this is the best bit of reading on NESA in months\"
Whilst in your 2nd, you seem to think that it\'s devisive and will \"split alot of memebrs like other threads in the past did.\"
I think Ell\'s right.....we ALL know that taking undersized fish IS wrong (not to mention ILLEGAL).
If anybody takes the hump and leaves NESA because of this discussion, then so be it. But, as has previously been said, I doubt if there\'ll be any \"fall-outs\" over it.
Nowt wrong in having a well informed, adult discussion. It\'s nice to see that there have been no dummies spat out, thus far. May it continue...... :exclam:
As regards Tats\' comments on charter boats.......Yes, it DOES happen. Several months ago, Ian went out on a charter (organised by his girlfriends dad). He said he was disgusted at the amount of undersized Whiting that were kept by those on board. At the end of the trip, one of the blokes gave Ian a black bin liner full of fish. When he got home and we were sorting through them (must\'ve been well over a hundred fish), they were almost ALL undersized Whiting
In contrast, Ians\' bag (whilst not containg THAT amount) consisted of several Cod, a good number of WELL in size Whiting and a few good sized Coalies.
In your 1st, you say \"Well this is the best bit of reading on NESA in months\"
Whilst in your 2nd, you seem to think that it\'s devisive and will \"split alot of memebrs like other threads in the past did.\"
I think Ell\'s right.....we ALL know that taking undersized fish IS wrong (not to mention ILLEGAL).
If anybody takes the hump and leaves NESA because of this discussion, then so be it. But, as has previously been said, I doubt if there\'ll be any \"fall-outs\" over it.
Nowt wrong in having a well informed, adult discussion. It\'s nice to see that there have been no dummies spat out, thus far. May it continue...... :exclam:
As regards Tats\' comments on charter boats.......Yes, it DOES happen. Several months ago, Ian went out on a charter (organised by his girlfriends dad). He said he was disgusted at the amount of undersized Whiting that were kept by those on board. At the end of the trip, one of the blokes gave Ian a black bin liner full of fish. When he got home and we were sorting through them (must\'ve been well over a hundred fish), they were almost ALL undersized Whiting
In contrast, Ians\' bag (whilst not containg THAT amount) consisted of several Cod, a good number of WELL in size Whiting and a few good sized Coalies.
The lads I fish with DO NOT keep undersize fish,but I would say over half the charter WILL keep them.If anything is mentioned you are at first told to mind your own business then basically to f**k off followed by the same reasons I have already given.AND they don\'t give their names.I have seen fish being gutted that do not fill the palm of your hand,and not just whiting.Some skippers do mention it but they dare not go too far in case word gets out that they are bad skippers.
)LING_BASHER
Well-known member
Yes Tony itis good reading but i have been fishing for many years more than you and have been a member many more years, this kind of topic can cause alot of problems on and off the bored.Leading to fights in some cases.
Still it\'s good reading thou.
Still it\'s good reading thou.
micky-quayle
Well-known member
i hope nobody does fall out over this, if anyone was going to get cheesed off it should be me, but i wont, my views obviously differ from most on this board, but i\'d just like to stress pikers (at least the ones i associate with) do not keep everything they catch, they return the coalies etc that are too big and keep only the size fish best suited for bait. they could if they were so minded return the undersized coalies and keep the bigger ones to use halved for the pike baits, but as i have said earlier this although being legal would in reality harm the stocks of coalies more since it must be only one in many many 5\" coalies that make it to 13.8\", so the amount of these larger fish that are returned must surely out ballance the smaller ones taken, these larger fish obviously stand a much better chance to go on and produce more little coalies. pikers are selective, and yes do think of future stocks despite what you may think. views may differ greatly on this subject but surely we can live with differing views without spitting the dummy out.
must agree, best thread in ages !
must agree, best thread in ages !
T
TC
Guest
Richy,
\"........ have been fishing for many years more than you and have been a member many more years.......\"
Can\'t argue with that, m8. From what I hear, you were hauling in mackeral at the age of 4 months......lol
\"........ have been fishing for many years more than you and have been a member many more years.......\"
Can\'t argue with that, m8. From what I hear, you were hauling in mackeral at the age of 4 months......lol
LING_BASHER
Well-known member
Be serious Tony 10 months.
ritchy what threads have actually lead to members fighting m8.
the majority of people on here are adults who can have a proper debate on a topic without falling out with each other after all theres been no threats or name calling on this thread and tc would rightly pull it if there was
the majority of people on here are adults who can have a proper debate on a topic without falling out with each other after all theres been no threats or name calling on this thread and tc would rightly pull it if there was
T
TC
Guest
Ray, I do know what Richy means.
Over the years, there have been a few topics which led to a bit of \"ill feeling\" amongst some members at the time.
However, I didn\'t realise that they had led to \"fights\" ??
Perhaps it\'s down to peeps mellowing with age...lol, or perhaps those more inclined to \"take it personal\" are no longer on the Board, I don\'t know, but it seems to allow for a more reasoned discussion.
You\'re right about the threats & name-calling, Ray - at the 1st sign, the topic would be pulled. That would be a great shame, considering the way it\'s been conducted so far, but I WOULD do it.
Over the years, there have been a few topics which led to a bit of \"ill feeling\" amongst some members at the time.
However, I didn\'t realise that they had led to \"fights\" ??
Perhaps it\'s down to peeps mellowing with age...lol, or perhaps those more inclined to \"take it personal\" are no longer on the Board, I don\'t know, but it seems to allow for a more reasoned discussion.
You\'re right about the threats & name-calling, Ray - at the 1st sign, the topic would be pulled. That would be a great shame, considering the way it\'s been conducted so far, but I WOULD do it.
jason
Well-known member
Dave has made a good point - if a fisheries vessel inspected a charter boat and found undersized fish in the fish boxes yes it would be the skipper who got prosecuted for allowing the fish to be on his boat. The majority of charters i have been on have not had under sized fish landed the odd few have been used for bait ie Pleggys.
mark
Well-known member
bit like the defra boys and shore anglers. I\'ce been out on a boat and seen the fisheries patrols, but they\'ve never been near. I Guaranteee that if they board just one or 2 charter boats, word would be round pronto and the problem resolved. As hard hitting as getting caught is to the commercials, the charters would feel it more.
Perhaps they ought to get to gether with defra this summer and pay a visit to all the piers nationwide and stop a few chater boats.
I for one cannot think of hearing/reading about any instance of shore anglers being targetted.
Now if you fish freshwater for trout and salmon the EA and various baliffs are like flies round shit, checking liceneces, tackle, measuring and weighing any fish you\'ve got etc. Most of them are ok but I\'ve come across a few complete nazis in my time. maybe they should get em selves down shields pier in the school hols!
Perhaps they ought to get to gether with defra this summer and pay a visit to all the piers nationwide and stop a few chater boats.
I for one cannot think of hearing/reading about any instance of shore anglers being targetted.
Now if you fish freshwater for trout and salmon the EA and various baliffs are like flies round shit, checking liceneces, tackle, measuring and weighing any fish you\'ve got etc. Most of them are ok but I\'ve come across a few complete nazis in my time. maybe they should get em selves down shields pier in the school hols!
Chris_Hughes
Well-known member
I\'ve been following this thread with interest, but I feel that the taking of undersized fish is just one problem in many for pleasure/leisure sea anglers.
The rules of the game (fisheries byelaws) are stacked towards the regulation of commercial fishermen, I think there should be a separate set of rules (byelaws, laws or whatever you want to call them) for pleasure sea anglers. One set of rules for Britain, so there is consistency throughout the land. Local illegal practices such as using edible peeler should not apply to pleasure sea anglers. However, there should be strict limits on the amount (say 5 with realistic size limits for bait purposes) that can be collected by one person on any day. A similar rule should apply to bait fish, undersized fish (of certain species e.g. mackerel, herring and coalfish) could be kept subject to a maximum number (say 5 fish) on any day, this could be extended to a weight limit of say 500g for small fry such as whitebait and sandeels collected by hand or in a hand net. Some species such as Bass would have strict minimum size limits. Other species should possibly have a minimum and maximum size window. Certain species should have bag limits restricting the amount of fish that can be taken in any day. Fishing competitions where there is a final weigh-in should be outlawed, competitions would be decided on parameters which can be measured at the waters edge thus facilitating catch and release if the angler is not keeping the fish for the table. National fish weight records should be outlawed. Records as published by the NFSA do nothing other than encourage people to hunt for specimens to get in the record books and many fish are killed in the process. The list of irregularities and anomalies is endless. Here is one that doesn\'t make sense, why is it legal in Britain to catch and land whitebait. Whitebait is a generic name for small juvenile fish up to about 7.5cm long, the fish species being mainly Herring but also includes Sprats. The minimum size for Herring is 20cm !
Q. How do you enforce a set of rules ?
A. By the introduction of fishing licenses for pleasure sea angling, the fees collected would finance bailiffs working under the guidance of the Environment Agency, also the fisheries officers currently working under the guidance of the fisheries committees should be transferred to the E.A. At the moment because sea anglers pay nothing for their sport, their bargaining position when negotiating fish quotas etc., has been weak. Indeed it is only recently that the state has started to realize that pleasure anglers are major stake holders in the conservation of fish stocks. If sea anglers are acknowledged as having a bigger stake in the management of fisheries perhaps we can negotiate no commercial fishing zones etc.
Some of the above ideas are quite controversial, but I\'m trying to look at the bigger picture, creating a mechanism which conserves fish stocks and allows anglers to gain maximum pleasure from their chosen pastime with the minimum of restriction.
The rules of the game (fisheries byelaws) are stacked towards the regulation of commercial fishermen, I think there should be a separate set of rules (byelaws, laws or whatever you want to call them) for pleasure sea anglers. One set of rules for Britain, so there is consistency throughout the land. Local illegal practices such as using edible peeler should not apply to pleasure sea anglers. However, there should be strict limits on the amount (say 5 with realistic size limits for bait purposes) that can be collected by one person on any day. A similar rule should apply to bait fish, undersized fish (of certain species e.g. mackerel, herring and coalfish) could be kept subject to a maximum number (say 5 fish) on any day, this could be extended to a weight limit of say 500g for small fry such as whitebait and sandeels collected by hand or in a hand net. Some species such as Bass would have strict minimum size limits. Other species should possibly have a minimum and maximum size window. Certain species should have bag limits restricting the amount of fish that can be taken in any day. Fishing competitions where there is a final weigh-in should be outlawed, competitions would be decided on parameters which can be measured at the waters edge thus facilitating catch and release if the angler is not keeping the fish for the table. National fish weight records should be outlawed. Records as published by the NFSA do nothing other than encourage people to hunt for specimens to get in the record books and many fish are killed in the process. The list of irregularities and anomalies is endless. Here is one that doesn\'t make sense, why is it legal in Britain to catch and land whitebait. Whitebait is a generic name for small juvenile fish up to about 7.5cm long, the fish species being mainly Herring but also includes Sprats. The minimum size for Herring is 20cm !
Q. How do you enforce a set of rules ?
A. By the introduction of fishing licenses for pleasure sea angling, the fees collected would finance bailiffs working under the guidance of the Environment Agency, also the fisheries officers currently working under the guidance of the fisheries committees should be transferred to the E.A. At the moment because sea anglers pay nothing for their sport, their bargaining position when negotiating fish quotas etc., has been weak. Indeed it is only recently that the state has started to realize that pleasure anglers are major stake holders in the conservation of fish stocks. If sea anglers are acknowledged as having a bigger stake in the management of fisheries perhaps we can negotiate no commercial fishing zones etc.
Some of the above ideas are quite controversial, but I\'m trying to look at the bigger picture, creating a mechanism which conserves fish stocks and allows anglers to gain maximum pleasure from their chosen pastime with the minimum of restriction.
mark
Well-known member
now there\'s something I hadn\'t thought of. Bag limits., Quite a paradox when you think that If I pay to fish a wild scottish loch or river, I have a limit of fish I can take. Yet if I fish for free in the sea you can fill yer boots. You\'d think If you were paying for it you\'d be entitled to more.
I\'d wholeheartedly be in favour of strict bag limits... and would welcome enforcement. which is easy for me to see as it wouldn\'t be that often I\'d reach the bag limit anyway!
I\'ve always though shore competitions questionable with the unneccessary killing of fish for a weigh in. How many of the fish weighed in endd up on the table and how many just get dumped?? There aint much eating on a just \'in-size\' whiting/flounder
Would Keep nets work?? they work for coarse anglers. A length/measurement system wouldn\'t work unless you had virtually one judge per angler
I\'d wholeheartedly be in favour of strict bag limits... and would welcome enforcement. which is easy for me to see as it wouldn\'t be that often I\'d reach the bag limit anyway!
I\'ve always though shore competitions questionable with the unneccessary killing of fish for a weigh in. How many of the fish weighed in endd up on the table and how many just get dumped?? There aint much eating on a just \'in-size\' whiting/flounder
Would Keep nets work?? they work for coarse anglers. A length/measurement system wouldn\'t work unless you had virtually one judge per angler
T
TC
Guest
Chris,
You make some very good points and I understand what you say.
I think you may have opened up a whole new can of worms by suggesting the introduction of licences for pleasure sea angling. We had a BIG discussion about that very thing, a couple of years ago. We even had the Magna Carta quoted if I remember rightly. I agree with your suggestion on licences, but I think the very idea would be totally anathema to the wider sea angling community and impractical in operation.
I know what you have suggested are the “bare bones†on possible regulation of sea angling and that the “detail†isn’t important here, but I can’t help wonder just HOW the suggested bailiff system could work in practice.
Never having been coarse fishing, I don’t know but, I would assume that the locations where the bailiff system operates have set times for fishing as well as defined boundaries. I doubt if the entire coastline could be policed by bailiffs, 24 hours a day – no matter how many there were.
One of your points I agree wholeheartedly with is the introduction of MAXIMUM size limits. I’ve been told that the flavour of fish deteriorates when you get into the 15lb + area (talking cod, here), so why keep a cod of any greater size. If you’re not gonna eat it – release it ! One reason is, I suppose, if it was caught during a competition, there’s a chance of taking home a canny wad of cash – and that’s why I agree with your suggestion of outlawing competitions which rely on a final weigh-in.
You make some very good points and I understand what you say.
I think you may have opened up a whole new can of worms by suggesting the introduction of licences for pleasure sea angling. We had a BIG discussion about that very thing, a couple of years ago. We even had the Magna Carta quoted if I remember rightly. I agree with your suggestion on licences, but I think the very idea would be totally anathema to the wider sea angling community and impractical in operation.
I know what you have suggested are the “bare bones†on possible regulation of sea angling and that the “detail†isn’t important here, but I can’t help wonder just HOW the suggested bailiff system could work in practice.
Never having been coarse fishing, I don’t know but, I would assume that the locations where the bailiff system operates have set times for fishing as well as defined boundaries. I doubt if the entire coastline could be policed by bailiffs, 24 hours a day – no matter how many there were.
One of your points I agree wholeheartedly with is the introduction of MAXIMUM size limits. I’ve been told that the flavour of fish deteriorates when you get into the 15lb + area (talking cod, here), so why keep a cod of any greater size. If you’re not gonna eat it – release it ! One reason is, I suppose, if it was caught during a competition, there’s a chance of taking home a canny wad of cash – and that’s why I agree with your suggestion of outlawing competitions which rely on a final weigh-in.
I do not belive in a rod licence for see anglers it would just be a tax revenue for tony blair ir will make no differance to the stocks in the northsea or help in anyway,defra might get nice new offices and computers etc but the anglers will get nothing for there money.Men are already inplace to check charter boats etc but they think it is a waste of time to do it .I was on a boat at eyemouth when we were checked by a defra inspector he mesured a few fish was happy with what he saw and left.But inspectors in orther ports do not carry out there duties, It onlt takes mins to check out a boat when it lands you do not have to chase them all over the north sea.And if this happens skippers and anglers will soon get the message
Chris_Hughes
Well-known member
Tony,
The license and bailiff system, works for fresh and still waters and there are many more miles of river, canal and lake banks than miles of coast. Joining the forces of existing sea fisheries protection officers with existing E.A bailiffs and a newly formed \"sea bailiffs\" force would pool resources and knowledge. It would create jobs in the \"Sea Bailiff\" sector, I\'m sure there area few on here who would snap up a job which brings them into close contact with the marine environment and sea fishing, hey some of the fascists amongst us can get to wear an uniform! Such a \"police\" force would be the friends of the regular law abiding anglers, but the scoundrels that brake the rules would risk heavy fines in the courts and confiscation of fishing tackle (there could be some bargains to be had at seasonal confiscated tackle auctions).
I don\'t like the idea of more regulation, but the mechanism we have at present is broken, it needs fixing. Self regulation does not work, but sensible policies with a carrot and stick approach will.
The license and bailiff system, works for fresh and still waters and there are many more miles of river, canal and lake banks than miles of coast. Joining the forces of existing sea fisheries protection officers with existing E.A bailiffs and a newly formed \"sea bailiffs\" force would pool resources and knowledge. It would create jobs in the \"Sea Bailiff\" sector, I\'m sure there area few on here who would snap up a job which brings them into close contact with the marine environment and sea fishing, hey some of the fascists amongst us can get to wear an uniform! Such a \"police\" force would be the friends of the regular law abiding anglers, but the scoundrels that brake the rules would risk heavy fines in the courts and confiscation of fishing tackle (there could be some bargains to be had at seasonal confiscated tackle auctions).
I don\'t like the idea of more regulation, but the mechanism we have at present is broken, it needs fixing. Self regulation does not work, but sensible policies with a carrot and stick approach will.
mark
Well-known member
on game/coarse waters, you can pretty much fish when you like time wise, as long as its in season. The exxception being commercial trout fisheries who often have a dusk till dawn policy. I wouldn\'t/don\'t fish stocked commercial trout waters though, only wild fish for me.
I don\'t neccessarily think it would have to run to full blown fishing gestapo, and likewise I don\'t neccesarily subscribe to the licence idea. The money from freashwater rod licences is \'supposed\' to go to fisheries management, which is totally impractical with the sea.
There are already plenty of fisheries officers/EA baliffs employed, who do have a close season when they obviously have a reduced workload, so why can they not be diverted to the seaside in the various close seasons for coarse/game angling??
So as a simple starting point to see how things go, extending the jurisidiction of these guys to the coast would provide all concerned with valuable data as to wether we really need to regulate heavily.
Granted you ddo not neccesarily know where all the anglers will be, but my guess is that all the worst offenders will be on the piers.
I do believe that anglers who are prepared to struggle across miles of rocks/beach to get to the chosen mark are likely to be far more professional about their sport than the fair weather angler you\'d find down the pier in june, and from what I\'ve seen it is these that are the problem, not just with undersized fish but the amount of rubbish they leave behind.
On freshwater they have the power to confiscate your tackle there and then, although in practice rarely do so - issuing a \'producer\' of sortss for your paper work.
So for me, I think a \'study period\' of behaviour before enforcement. If after this time it becomes obvious some enforcement is needed then we only have ourselves to blaim.
I don\'t neccessarily think it would have to run to full blown fishing gestapo, and likewise I don\'t neccesarily subscribe to the licence idea. The money from freashwater rod licences is \'supposed\' to go to fisheries management, which is totally impractical with the sea.
There are already plenty of fisheries officers/EA baliffs employed, who do have a close season when they obviously have a reduced workload, so why can they not be diverted to the seaside in the various close seasons for coarse/game angling??
So as a simple starting point to see how things go, extending the jurisidiction of these guys to the coast would provide all concerned with valuable data as to wether we really need to regulate heavily.
Granted you ddo not neccesarily know where all the anglers will be, but my guess is that all the worst offenders will be on the piers.
I do believe that anglers who are prepared to struggle across miles of rocks/beach to get to the chosen mark are likely to be far more professional about their sport than the fair weather angler you\'d find down the pier in june, and from what I\'ve seen it is these that are the problem, not just with undersized fish but the amount of rubbish they leave behind.
On freshwater they have the power to confiscate your tackle there and then, although in practice rarely do so - issuing a \'producer\' of sortss for your paper work.
So for me, I think a \'study period\' of behaviour before enforcement. If after this time it becomes obvious some enforcement is needed then we only have ourselves to blaim.
