Fox Hunting Ban

[micky-quayle]

theres another good debate on the same subject going on on another fishing website i use, its over 5 pages long now, have a read if you want, heres the link
http://www.pikeandpredators.com/
go to forums (link near top left)
then pike forum and you\'ll see the thread.
obviously a very emotive issue.

 

[Red5]

If these toffs are so interested with the rural way of life why do they never seem to use the local facilities? They don\'t use the little corner shop or the post office as Mrs Farmer just heads to the out of town supermarket in her 4x4 powered by red diesel. Little Johhny goes to private school in London and the nanny is an au pair from a country where 50p per hour is a fortune!
The local landowner up here(who just happens to be the largest in the Northeast seems intent on selling off all his land to rich townies from down south who think a £500,000 house is cheap. What of the locals who can\'t afford a shed? lets get rid of local sports pitches and build on top of those as well! If these pro\'s think people are stupid enough to believe it\'s a town versus country or fishing will be banned next shows how desperate they are. They claim that townsfolk should keep out of their business, I\'m sure townsfolk would love to stay out of their business but when taxpayers fork out tens of billions of pounds to farmers in subsidies why shouldn\'t townies have a say.\"We are the custodians of the countryside\". Only because we pay you not to dig everything up and spray them in pesticides or tip your slurry in the local river killing thousands of fish.The only way they garner more support is to make this a bigger issue which it is not! It\'s about banning cruelty. Look how people are touched by the story of that poor puppy. We don\'t like to see domestic animals suffer cruelty so why allow a fox/hare or stag to be chased and terrorised before being torn to shreds.

 

[BriH]

Its GOOD to see that i have opened a hornets nest on this one , but the real reason was to see if the ban would eventually affect the fishermen/woman of this Country, as i think it will - as Micky said, not a direct ban but an erosion of what we presantly do in the pursute of our sport,it wasnt meant to turn into a \"bash a toff-cos he is a tw*t\"- i am sure there are some quite reasonable \"Toffs\" out there,who will more than likely fish aswell ,its US next Lads on the real ENEMY of the State - THEM FU*KING Anti Blood Sport brigade ,who would see there FELLOW man suffer in there task to save a stickleback- read the link on micky\"s post - they say dont throw maggots in the water as they will DROWN-well i say let them turn into flies as would happen and get squashed on my windscreen- does that offend them as well-Do they Walk every where so not to be classed as Hypocrites- haway man have a word with yer\"sels.

 

[willywetegg]

Yes well said BriH. I bet there is one reading these posts with interest and thinking \" This is easy, we havn\"t done anything yet and they are already fighting among themselves \". It won\"t be that long till they start turning up on piers working them selves to the best of their ability.
A lot of anglers are going to have to start doing the job properly, ie taking litter home for a start. We will all be under quite a big spotlight soon enough without giving ourselves problems.

Jim.

 

[IanW]

My belief is that the anti\'s will not turn on fishing next.

They will however get there in the end. The notion that quite a number of people on here believe it won\'t happen is quite disturbing.

I can now see them trying to eradicate all forms of hunting or sporting with another animal, even if the outcome goes in the pot.

So I would imagine next on the list will be hare coursing, although I already thought this was banned. Next I would imagine them to turn on wildfowling, only because of the small numbers of participants. Then an attempt on the small run shoots, before the more awkward pheasant and grouse syndicates.

THEN FISHING.

Start with the match/coarse fishermen who only do it for the fun of it. Then proceed to game and sea fishing, especially areas with easy access, such as piers, especially in mackerel season. It may take them some time but they have already shown how persistent they are.

I think all forms of country sports should be united against a common enemy otherwise they will manage to divide and conquer.


Onto fox hunting and the rally yesterday:-

The belief that it is only \"toffs\" who go hunting is a somewhat blinkered opinion, but if you see enough of it on the news then it must be true. Like most things in life there will be a broad spectrum of society that supports them. To condone being whacked over the head with a large baton I find very peculiar, regardless of what you\'re protesting.

People say that an animal being torn apart is cruel and disgusting, is clubbing a fish to death no less cruel and disgusting. Anyone got an idea how long a fox suffers for when caught, I can\'t see it being very long if it\'s being torn in a dozen directions. Only seen one outcome many years ago when out with the parents in Northumberland and it was over very quickly. The dog we had at that time didn\'t get savaged either. For those who say dispatching a fish is one swift blow with a stick they obviously haven’t tried to dispatch a ling recently, or am I just shite at it??

Dispatching with rifles, whilst some people may consider the most humane and efficient method is not as perfect as it could be. I have done some time on a shoot up the coast, nothing big, just a few of us who managed to get some land and put pheasant and partridge down. One of the jobs was to go lamping to control the pests both for the farmer (rabbits) and us (foxes). Couple of occasions they were hit but could not be found. Another occasion we turned up and had to despatch it with the small .22 rifle.

As for the protesters that broke into the Commons yesterday, whilst not having any effect on the outcome, is not the best publicity to get yourself endeared to the general public, and to hit a woman, if true, even more so. Also violent protest of any kind never gets you any results, just look at the Miners and the Poll Tax riots.

My beliefs on hunting/\"sporting activities\".

If an animal has the chance of escape then I see no reason why it should be stopped.

If the outcome is known to involve the death or serious wounding of an animal (coursing, baiting etc.) then I have reservations about it, which is why I was surprised to read that hare coursing is still legal.

In response to my better(??) half, Clare, yes I would be prepared to go to the same lengths as those opposed to banning foxhunting. I\'ve got to have a reprieve now and again.



Now for the remark that might get edited or removed, but here goes anyway…..

If fox hunting had been part of a recognised religious belief then nothing would be done for fear of upsetting the minority. Have the league against cruel sports etc. ever thought of targeting Halal meat production, probably not. Don\'t get me wrong, I haven\'t got a problem with animals getting they\'re throats slashed, as long as it\'s not just for fun.

Our union has a ruling that the majority cannot enforce something onto the minority when it only has consequences for the minority.

Well on this occasion the minority has been well and truly shafted by the elected majority.

 

[CJS]

Micky, As a the son of a county boy, (poor worker type) I have to agree with you, however, a well aimed gun is the answer, but it takes time, at night, cant see any of these softies in red coats trying that. There are guys who do this work for farmers, targeting only the trouble maker fox. They are profesional, know their pry, often given it a name, its like an SAS oporation, but it works. Fox hunting, right or wrong?, although they do seem to have a high and mighty, superior, plum in the mouth attitude. :yltype: CJS

 

[Ell]

Also violent protest of any kind never gets you any results

Oh yes it does. ANC for starters.

 

[mark]

Also violent protest of any kind never gets you any results

Oh yes it does. ANC for starters.

poll tax riots. 6 months later no poll tax

 

[bribones]

targeting only the trouble maker fox. They are profesional, know their pry, often given it a name

so the bloke in the red coat says to the dog we are chasing basil tonight,off go the dogs and corner a fox,after a brief discusion they decide its not basil and let it go ?i dont think so cjs lol

if i put my hands up im anti hunting and anti anti there both a waste of space ,i agree the fox population has to be controlled but by another method imo,the antis have nothing better to do so yes they will move on but ithink fishing will be way down the line of targets

 

[Red5]

The difference between Halal meat and killing foxes/hares and stags is that Jews and Muslims don\'t do it for fun! There is actually a statement in the Quaran that forbids chopping down trees unless it really essential and they belive that all life is precious and should be respected. Having worked on farms supplying poultry I can tell you that a good percentage of birds are not stunned properly before having their throats cut so maybe we\'re all guilty of eating meat from a similar fashion. The fact is we don\'t take immense pleasure or create great social occasions out of it. We purely do it for food.
How many foxes end up on the table?
How often do we hear in the press of some irate farmer doing his nut about dogs that have attacked his sheep and the cruelty inflicted on them? Isn\'t that no different from hunting with hounds. Why is it when I asked a farmer recently if I could shoot rabbits on his land he told me no because I\'d trample his crops, yet 20 fat toffs, 30 dogs and numerous farmers wives in their 4x4\'s and subaru\'s wouldn\'t?
What makes them above the law, when it is banned. If they are to ignore the law then why shouldn\'t everyone. They can\'t complain when they are burgled, or their children are tapped up by some paedo.
The anti fishing brigade is being made a far bigger issue/threat than it truly is by the Countryside alliance to get more people to follow them like sheep. I for one am not worried one bit.

 

[bribones]

red5

The difference between Halal meat and killing foxes

ive actualy seen this done to chickens by a local shop owner,he prays to whoever to give thanks for the meat and to thank the bird for giving up its life ,the bird basicly was calmed down and quite relaxed not sh@#~ng itself ,then when the deed was done it just went to sleep peacefull like,as you say its not for fun and with minimum stress to the animals unlike the fox

 

[IanW]

poll tax riots. 6 months later no poll tax

So am I wrong to assume that council tax is not just poll tax under a different name? But then that\'s off topic.

And so is this bit....If hunting was done by say two men and a pack of dogs would there have been as much resentment to it? I think not.

To get back to the fishing, and to re ask Clares question, if the Anti\'s were to turn their attention to fishing next would people go to the same extents as the Pro-hunt people did.

 

[Red5]

One man, one dog quick bite to the back of the neck, maybe doesnt\' seem as bad as 30 bloodthirsty dogs tearing something to pieces...but then having lived in the countryside all me life have been pretty cut when me dog once caught a rabbit and basically crushed the rabbit across the stomach in his jaws. rabbit screaming in agony I had to put it to sleep. Absolutely gutted..always made me dog walk to heal after that!
I always pay me respects to whatever fish i catch and always think of the consequences of taking a fish that could be breeding stock.
They\'ll never ban fishing!

 

[Clare]

I think that people may have picked up the Halal - Fox hunting comparison wrongly.

If fox hunting had been part of a recognised religious belief then nothing would be done for fear of upsetting the minority.

The above only asks if it had been a religious right would it have been an issue.

And what also perturbs me is the fact that a lot of people are assuming that it is the well to do/toffs that only go fox hunting. Well living in a village surrounded by farmers fields and hearing rifles going off at all times in the night I know that it is not true. Yes, people where I live shoot foxes, they also shoot rabbits, pigeons and if they are lucky a few ducks and maybe a grouse or three... There are about 5 farms within a 2 mile radius of where we live and driving from our home to a friends about 4 miles away and back again, I have seen at least 7 foxes in the last week or so, and they are probably the tip of the iceberg. I have seen people walking back from a nights shooting with two to three foxes over their shoulders and those same lads go on and particapte in a hunt further up in Northumberland. These people are ex-farm hands and ex-miners.

Before living where I now live I was one of those people who believed all of the anti-bloodsports hype, but then to live in a village where for some people it is a way of controlling the numbers and assurring the survival of their livestock, my views changed.

Maybe chasing a fox for miles in and out of fields with a pack of dogs is not the best way to control numbers, but for those who particpate in it, it is tradition and it is part of them.

And getting back to the question I raised. Would you abide by a law that you did not believe in? and how far would you go to ensure it did not become a law in the first place?

 

[Red5]

It was once traditional to dig badgers out of their setts and set dogs onto them, to put dogs together to fight each other and bears (before they were eliminated), cockfights were once traditional along with many other things we found as a majority abhorrent. Doesn\'t mean that they were right because they were traditional.
It has been proved how inneffective fox hunting is as a method of control with the vast majority RTA victims. If in an area where foxes tend to be territorial I would wonder why people were coming back every night with 2-3 over their shoulders. Like anything how could a population sustain itself unless it was maybe getting a helping hand from the local hunt who\'s interests lie in there being aconstant supply!

 

[CJS]

Answer \'bribones\'. Not sure if you are with me or against mate? All I say is, let the hunt \'hunt,\' I am a fisherman, who am I to pint the finger. However, I have seen these profesionals rifal hunters at work. The names are given for identification purposes, they actualy set a spacific fox up (old, trouble maker, sick etc), over a few nights, I presume others (culling) are taken on presentation. I am against the barbaric tearing apart of the fox when caught.

So, whats the answer? One presumes the thrill is in the chase, thats what a fox hunter would have us believe, 99.9% of a hunts activity is the chase, I can imagine, its like the buzz I get when stalking trout or bass, the old heart is going like a steam hammer as you watch a fish chasing a lour or fly. The trouble is the fox quary is not food, true it wrecks other food, ie livestock, but foxy is to die very painfully for no good reason conected with hunting.

The hunts are complainin of loosing livleyhoods, fair coment. Why not put the killing of foxes on a humane plain, and have the job done properly, create jobs!! For their thrills, the hunt could go on drag. Drag hunting will give all the thrills and spills of the persuit, without the gory end. Jobs are maintained, foxes are kept undercontrol humainly, everyone is happy. As has been mentioned, some individuals even maintain the double thrill of night stalking with a gun, and the thrill of the chase on horseback, and a glass or two beforhand.

Dont want to do it that way! then I question the motivation of why people hunt foxes?

Presuming we all like our fish and chips, and occasionaly we do buy from the chippy, Ever thought about the way comercial fish are caught and treated, draged along in a net, hauled from the depths, droped onto the boats deck and left to suffocate in air, and then gutted oly half dead. Better not let the anti hunt lobby grt their heads around that one. Howabout long lining, take a bait on a long line traped by the mouth foe X hours and probaly treated the same as the trawled fish one on deck, Just a thought?
CJS :yltype:

CJS

 

[alan]

This my feelings,i have read the posts which are great,probably the best i\'ve seen on here.
Until a few years ago i was totally anti hunting,we started holidaying in Scotland on a regular basis a good few years ago and my feelings started changing,i got to know people who live on farms and are employed in farming related jobs,until then i knew very little about rural life and imparticular farm life,I have witnessed the deverstation foxes and birds of prey have caused on farms,they muterlate lambs and poultery and leave there bodies normally without eating them (foxes).The farm we stay on breeds ######## (i\'ll not say what as you could narrow it down which farm it is if you read my other posts) the farmer still shoots foxes on his land,he and his wife work seven days a week 365 days a year,if the fox gets into his ####### it would wipe out months of work,I have discussed hunting with him in the past and he says it still goes on in Scotland \"its a way of life and its our life\" he says the big \"hunts\" are now gone apart from the Coldstream hunt which crosses over the border and hunts on this side,he says Townies have\'nt got a clue all they see is the lovely little red fox minding its own business,how wrong they are..........the vast majority of people that hunt are working class people and the anti\'s think they are toffs because of there dress and lol four wheel drive cars etc etc,you ever driven over rough land in a micra,we also talked about guns,he reckons every farm has got a gun,the police know as well but they are\'nt bothered they would rather make real money and stop motorists,he compares taking guns off farmers to \"taking a boat off a fishermen\" its a tool.
Most or all towns and cities are plaqued with rats (remember the news recently re-Shields,Fish quay,Middens etc) foxes are vermin like rats but Joe public would\'nt bat an eye lid if the local council came along and left rat poison out to kill them,\"get the dirty #uckers away from me\".wheres all the anti\'s defending the rats lmfao.
I can\'t condone Badger baiting which is barbaric and is normally carried out by innner city,can\'t think of the word to describe them,########,shtie.
I recently discussed game fishing when i was in Scotland with a few people and they are really concerned that the anti\'s might pick up on that as well but like its discussed on here it generates vast amounts of money,i don\'t need to mention where the money goes etc etc as you lot know alott more about fishing than me,it goes from the top to the bottom.
Imo I respect the rural way of life and i hope they respect mine,some of the ways people hunt maybe out of date or politically incorrect or damn right shocking but so is kicking the life out of a puppy or doing terrible things to children,why not knock on there doors..........please.......
the above is just my opinion and experience and things i have witnessed,hope i make sense as i have just come nightshift
John Smith is knocking on the fridge door so i must see what he wants.

 

[bribones]

cjs ,sorry m8 misread your post ,i agree with the shooting and i suppose as its more personal ie hands on they could name them , a bit silly though two big blokes with a gun going hunting for fluffy

 

[CJS]

\'Bribones\', does seem a bit strange to make it personal, however, every fox is diferent, all look the same to us, but as with all wild life, there are subtle diferences. This way, the job becomes efficient and profesional. As I have said, I come from country stock, many years ago, as a young\'un, I remember watching the hunt, they used to meet at the local village pub, the \'Cricketers\' in Redbourn, Hertfordshire, drinks all round etc. Ironic realy, the landscape in the area was lika big bowl, the hut was often easy to follow across \'Artops\' fields.

One has to be honest, and ask the question, in the 21st centuary, is hunting for anything, other than \'for the pot\' right? Trophy hunting of lions and tigers? we dont do that any more, apart from with a camera. Fishing? I can come to terms with the catch it, pic and release, although I can see where the anti lobby are coming from. Sea and game fishing is for me, not a problem, I do eat most of what I catch. There are alternitives for the hunter, and humane alternatives for control of the pray? That said, I am very much lefts sitting on the fence, country bourn and bred, a fisherman, and believing strongly in my individual rights.

Perhaps we should be more concrened about the conditions and the way some of our farmed livestock are treated, the way people treat animals for the pet trade. For that fact the way some people treat their pets. When you boil it down, we are still a prity barbaric race, we do a lot of papering over the cracks and \'not in my backyard\'! How about the lories full of chickens in cramped plastic trays. We have all seen them, suffered the feathers that are blown out, 60mph, wind whistling throught the holes, not a pleasent experience which ever way you look at it. Bet some of us are going to sit down to a Sunday roast chicken, Supermarket special \'2 for the price of 1\' . . . Even if those chucs\' are only for the fetilizer factory, they are still alive, well they were when they were pened up!

I am sure there is lots of good husbandry around . . . . am I muddying the water . . . ? Double standards, on both sides of the fence . . . ? Yeh\' we still have a long way to go. :casstet:

CJS :yltype:

 

[Red5]

Foxes have exactly the same mentality as humans when it comes to a bounty of food, instead of taking one they seem to take everything, which for a an uneducated fox is natural. For a human however to do the same i.e catch 20-30 fish and then wonder what they are gonna do with them is unacceptable. How amny times have you been on a boat or pier and watch someone catch loads and then chuck the dead fish away or leave it in their freezer for 2 years b4 chucking them. What of the images in the sea angling amgazines where totally unedible fish are pictured in someones back garden?
If the framer takes decent precautions on his chicken runs then foxes shouldn\'t be a problem. As for sheep maybe it\'s the weak lame ones which have been left hobbling around in agony with foot rot that are taken, as would be by any other predator. They go for the weak and infirm because they have less chance of inflicting damage upon themselves and therefore easier to catch.
Again as I have stated b4 if a fox is a problem shoot it. most anti hunting with dogs people don\'t disagree with the fact that foxes need to be controlled, it\'s the way it\'s done. Hares and deer don\'t attack livestock and yet they are persecuted in the same way. How common are hares now? Intensive farming has destroyed their environment along wiht miilions of birds. Oh sorry magpies are to blame there????? Or anyother creature that can be blamed for the landowners mismanagement. How about birds of prey? Poisoned and shot by gamekeepers to protect pheasants and grouse. Why can\'t they live alongside them instead of trying to create a monoculture where only humans and sheep/cows live on a patchwork of barren grass and featureless views?